Earlier today, I posted a question about whether or not it is appropriate to have a five-month-old puppy tied to a stationary object lunging. There were some very interesting comments to my question—some I agree with and some not. Mostly not—so I am addressing it here.
I speak as a GSD breeder, and someone who has been paid to condition GSDs. A puppy at that age has bone, tissue and muscle that are still developing. What we do with that puppy during this growth period can effect the outcome of their development—period.
You are right, Lies, when a dog is tied to an object, there is no give to the lead. That was my point entirely. If Nikon’s front is off the ground, then he hit the end of that lead, and I’m sure it was with some force. So in this case, what is the shock-absorber? His body!
Look at the You-tube videos you attached. The puppy was off lead or the lead was held by someone. No matter how hard you try to STAY planted (as you say) there is still a little give-and-take in that lead. Watch the video again. You’ll see the handler’s arm move. Just that tiny bit is a little shock absorber. There is a huge difference in working a dog that is on lead and working a dog that is tied.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aO0ayIefBg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYYuhI8gCCY
Here are my concerns: Your eagerness to have a super SchH pup can be causing potential damage to a darn good dog. Yes, it is hard to get the true picture from a “2 dimensional” snapshopt. You’ve tied Nikon to an exercise machine and had to stop because he was dragging it across the room. That is a puppy under too much physical pressure. (This is not the same as playing a rag game or jumping naturally.) I’ve seen too many “2 dimensional” photos of Nikon jumping and/or lunging. My comment wasn’t based on one little photo. (And yes, by the way, I do have some SchH experience.) A dog with Nikon’s breeding is not about to lose his prey drive between training sessions!
There are quite a few people on this blog who are new to GSDs and have young puppies. I certainly hope that they are not getting the impression that this is the way to go. My advice for all of you is the same advice that I’ve been giving people for the past 25 years. When in doubt—ask your BREEDER! Julie knows what she is doing—it would be wise to value her opinion.
Carole, I couldn’t agree more. While my background is in goldens, the concept is the same. I have trained many goldens to high level of field work. What they do naturally is very different from what we “make” them do. The shock absorption taken by his body is too much at such a young age. The prey drive won’t diminish, so engage Nikon mentally! That’s where so much of who he is lives anyway. Julie, what are your thoughts? You are the one I turn to in GSD’s. Dogs are dogs, BUT there are many breed specific considerations to be taken into account. Lies, everyone cares very much about these dogs – please listen to voices with years and years of experience.
Hi, I admire the lively enthusiasm and dedication that Lies brings to training all her dogs. However, I would like to caution her that a young pups joints and muscles can be damaged permanently by too much unforgiving stress on them. Any activity taken to the extreme has the potential to inflict injury, not just schutzhund training. My advice is to continue having fun with your pup, bring it down a couple notches, and, if in doubt, err on the side of caution. If you are able to put aside your ego for a moment (it’s not easy for any of us) please consider Carole’s advice to you. She is coming from a wise, selfless place of putting the dog’s best interests first.
Believe me, I take your concerns to heart and do not disagree with your statements or reasons for sharing them. I removed the original post because it apparently contained examples of what not to do with a pup, images that are misleading or confusing for new owners and thus should be removed so people don’t get the wrong idea.
I do not disagree on the issue of jumping and see the error of my ways. While I may not directly respond to all of them, I do read all the posts and comments here. If I do not acknowledge them, please don’t feel it’s because I disagree. I would like to say that my inadvertently encouraging jumping was more from the fun and joy of him doing it than anything having to do with training or SchH. He seemed to love it and I didn’t know any better, now I do. I knew that dogs can’t do formal jump training until they are 2 but I guess I did not equate playing with the same level of jumping. That is not an excuse, just a point of clarification. I will toss the rags and stick to the ball since gravity keeps it on the ground once it leaves my hands (as long as it doesn’t bounce, then he jumps for it, gah!).
I did not choose Nikon for SchH training; I wanted a well-rounded, clear-headed dog that could do well at ANYthing and everything, a dog with a solid temperament, good health, drool-worthy lines, from a reputable breeder who stands behind her dogs. Julie picked Nikon for me and I would not trade him for any other dog, even a WUSV champion dog. Nikon makes me smile and laugh every day and even at five months I believe he fits all of the criteria and more (not that I was every worried he wouldn’t!). I am not really a puppy person (shock!) but I have never regretted getting Nikon and have thoroughly enjoyed his puppyhood so far. So, respectfully, my comments and deleting the previous post have nothing to do with ego or enthusiasm for formal training. In fact at times I have resented the requirement that in some venues, only SchH titles make a dog suitable for breeding and receiving top conformation ratings (well, HGH, but there are only one or two HGH programs in the USA I am told).
As for the backtying, I’m not sure what to think because I am getting conflicting messages. The consensus here seems to be that it is dangerous, correct? Honestly I did not know this until today because several people recommended it to me as something I can easily do at home to play games and build drive without having anyone else to help me keep it under control and not get bit. At present, if I take out a rag in front of Nikon he will instantly jump and bite for it without any sort of encouragement (I have bite marks on my thighs and rips on various pants and shirts where I was picking up a rag toy or carrying it without paying attention…I really feel for Jeff now haha!), or if I am swishing it on the ground to keep him down, he is on the rag in half a second and I get accidentally bit. Not that I blame Nikon, I guess it’s a good thing he is that obsessed with the rags! Tonight I asked Warren to go over with me the right way to hold the dog while he and Nick are working and he said to never move my feet (unless given the cue for the victory lap), not ever give slack in the lead or move forward and that the helper should always have full control over the distance and the amount of pressure/slack. I was also wondering about what happens when the helper does offer the dog the toy and they tug for a few seconds, whether I should give some slack on the lead at that point. I was told no, to just hold the lead in the same position at all times, even if it seems like the helper and handler are playing tug of war over the puppy, and that if the puppy needed slack to re-grip, the helper would move in, but that too much slack was causing Nikon to let go and Nick was told to move him out farther and use more pressure during the tugging. So, I am open to more clarification….
My final thought is on training vs. play, or as others have stated, what dogs do naturally vs. what we make them do. My original reason for wanting to try SchH was that it appeared to me a more “natural” way of training the dog, using skills and instincts the dog already has and giving an outlet for their drive. I was thinking of trying AKC obedience with Chopper at some point but the more trials I watched, the more shut-down looking dogs I saw, whereas when I watch SchH the dogs often look more intense, engaged, willing to work. I also liked that most of the training is based on games where the dog gets to win. I don’t like training that doesn’t stem from play or incorporate games as rewards (as opposed to coercive methods, or always having to just use treats as a reward). But, if I am mistaken and SchH is largely UNnatural for the dog we can look into some other activities. The last thing I want is for it to appear that I am making my dogs do things they wouldn’t otherwise enjoy with anyone else or that my dogs would be better suited with someone else.
Wow, that is long.
PS. Does jumping on/off the couch fall under the good or bad type of jumping? (please say bad so I can tell Nikon he can’t jump on the couch and put his slobbery Cuz ball in my lap ever again!)
I’ll say jumping on/off the couch is bad only because Tasha (Nikon’s sister ) is not allowed on the couch! Tasha and Harley both have dog beds from Ethan Allen that match the sofas so my mother will not allow them up there… I hope this helps your slobbery Cuz ball dilemma.
I am not going to have Nikon blame me for him no longer being allowed to jump on the couch. Sorry—but I’ve seen those fangs! 🙂
He just got a set of new ones. They are no longer as sharp but they are much stronger now! Ow
Hi Lies,
I don’t think that any of us ever thought that Nikon would be better suited with someone else, or that you were making your dogs do something that they don’t enjoy doing. Your dogs are obviously quite happy! As I’ve said before, you need to trust your breeder. Julie picked Nikon for you for a reason. She has faith in you! You have everything you wanted in that pup. Along with that comes some very high exuberance on Nikon’s part.
SchH or HGH titles are required to receive top conformation ratings and preferred for breeding purposes to prove that our dogs can work—they are not just a pretty face running around the ring. It is proof that we have the total package. If AKC would have something similar in place, maybe so many of the CHs wouldn’t be the way they are today.
To backtie Nikon vs holding the lead – try this:
Put a belt right under your ribcage and hook a lead to it. Tie the lead to the door. Now lunge at something with as much exuberance as Nikon would. (Maybe put Phil’s breakfast plate slightly out of reach!) Really give this lunge your all. Then do the same thing again, only this time have Phil hold the lead with his feet planted. You should be able to feel the difference in being tied to a stationary object vs the little flex in Phil’s arm.
The information that Warren gave you in class is correct. Even though at times it seems like the helper and handler are playing tug of war over the puppy, the helper is controlling the game.
There is absolutely noting wrong with training a dog for SchH and/or AKC. Like anything else, the intensity of the training needs to be matched with the age of the dog. Puppies need good foundation work, but even those with high drive need to have the time for their bodies to develop properly.
As for SchH vs AKC obedience: the happy dog look can be attained in either venue. That is based solely on how you train your dog! I’ve seen damn happy and very miserable dogs at both types of events. How you train is the key—Chopper would be great at AKC obedience. If you are interested, give it a try. Show those AKC people what a happy working dog looks like and go kick butt.
Carole, your experiment is reminding me of being harnessed in for gymnastics tricks, lol.
I am still unclear on backtying specifically. So you are saying it’s very bad for puppies? If so, I don’t know enough about SchH to know whether those who suggested it to me (specifically for a puppy) don’t care about the dog or don’t know any better. What is your take?
Lies, try my experiment and see what you think.
Here’s my personal opinion: I would not backtie a young pup that has as much exuberance as Nikon. Any time there is potential to harm growing tissue/bone, I’d rather err on the safe side. Believe me, I understand your frustration at sometimes needing to be creative when having to work a dog alone. To me, it just isn’t worth the risk of damage to Nikon if you misjudge his lunging efforts.
Nothing to add, good info here. Just want to say this is a good blog. Back to lurking.