Hi AT family, writing to wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a wonderful 2013. While here, I would also like to ask from your wealth of expertise on the following: Xavi is itching a lot, day/night, outside/inside, hot/cold, awake/sleepping you name it. His vet says Xavi has allergies and suggested that we look at what Xavi is eating and take away one food item at a time.
We started with the main source of nutrition and took raw chicken right out of the menu for 3 weeks. In the meantime we bumped up the amount of turkey and beef that he gets. The itching didn’t stop so we now reintroduced chicken
and will be taking the salmon oil out next. We know salmon oil as a supplement is great and even though we are feeding him a good quality of oil we want to try everything. Any helpful feedback will be very welcome.
Sincerely, Rod.
Allergies are tough. I had a girl many years ago that had allergies. I found keeping a diary helped find patterns. Keep track of everything your dog eats, the places you go, the weather. It can all be a factor.
Rather than eliminating 1 food item at a time, try the reverse. Feed only one item at a time. I also found that food allergies caused itchy, yeasty ears.
Also keep in mind that allergies are not an illness as much as a symptom. Treating the symptom will not really solve the problem long term.
Just my humble opinion but I think you need to get the dog comfortable while trying to fix the underlying problem, which is a short curcuit in the immune system.
If any of my dogs showed signs of allergies, I WOULD NEVER AGAIN VACCINATE THEM. I have no proof but my gut feeling is that allergies are a result of over vaccinating or a reaction to a vaccine. With multiple vaccines it is impossible to pin point the problem. When you do vaccinate, insist that the vaccines be individual and spread out.
Irene, that is great advice. I will certainly go to the “One food at a time” approach. Xavi is on a minimized vaccine protocol and has only had what our wonderful Julie gave him, before he came home, plus another round. No Lepto at all and waiting on rabies shot until he is 1 year.
Good for you Rod! Giving a dog any type of vaccine when they already have allergy issues could be a life long struggle for you but especially for the dog! Vaccinosis is a HORRIBLE thing!
Two suggestions:
1. Detox him with Homeopathy. Thuja and Sulphur first, then a round of Lyssin, and then herbals.
2. For food, choose ground turkey or chicken or ground round beef (all about 93% muscle meat to 7% fat) and mix the ground meat with ground zucchini (peeled and pulverized in blender with some purified water) to use as an elimination type diet. 4 pounds of meat to 1 pound of zucchini. Nothing else for several weeks. For treats, only braised round steak or pork chop cut into tiny pieces with scissors (freeze in baggies until needed). I know it’s hard but try to keep every other food source away from him or it will skew the process. This will calm down his system with the extremely limited ingredients. This has been a great elimination diet for many over the years. Give benedryl for relief. Also, no topical flea products and only purified water.
Feel free to email me for directions if you choose to take this approach. karen.karensk9s@gmail.com
Good luck and keep us posted! 🙂
Karen,
I’m ever so grateful for your wise words. What is your opinion if I detoxed Xavi and went to California Natural Lamb and Rice for the time being? I want to get away from feeding poultry altogether and I’d like to try the beef/zucchini diet but with venison. That will have to wait till I’m recovered and I learn how to hunt, lol.
a Heska test (blood draw) should be able to help you determine the “offending” proteins. In Libby’s case all poultry was an issue and most commercial foods have some sort of poultry meal or fat in the ingredients-you will really have to read the labels. She was on an elimination diet of Ground beef and black beans for 6 weeks. With-in the 1st week there was huge improvement in the ears and feet.. Then my vet had a nutritionist create a balanced homemade diet for her to be on long term . We added each new item 1 at a time for 2 weeks. If things were good then I added the next item. Since she is ok with beef as her protein all parts are ok, I am able to buy heart and liver to cook and cut up as treats & she can have beef bullies or raw beef marrow bones as a chew treat (or part of my strip steak if no one is watching :). Good luck
The detox would be a great thing! I am glad you are considering it! Contact me if you decide and I’ll tell you where to purchase.
Some vaccines are grown on chick embryo’s so that could be a reason for some dogs having sensitivity to chicken.
I can only speak for the results I’ve seen after using this elimination diet with only 2 ingredients in it for many dogs. If you choose a commercially made kibble, it usually contains over 20 ingredients including the vitamins and minerals. If you only use 2 ingredients and then, after about 4 weeks add an ingredient and watch for a week or two you would know if he was sensitive to it. Then continue to add ingredients in this manner, continually watching for reactions.
As for the diet itself, I would use beef and zucchini for now and whenever you can, get venison. You can get ground round on sale, at Meiers, Costco, Sams Club etc for about $3 a pound, or you could even purchase round steak or rump roast at a cheaper price and grind it yourself with a small grinder. Xavi would eat approximately 2 cups 2 X daily which is 2 pounds (2 cups = 1 pound) so it would cost about $6 a day. For me……the price and limiting the ingredients is worth the “I wonder if” question. 🙂
Karen Murray will agree with no more vaccines ever again.
Julie,
The only vacine I had planned to do was Rabies. You saying I’d be wise to forgo that one altogether?
Do a rabies titer (to satisfy your own mind) and have your vet get you an “exemption” for the vaccine.
Rod are you in Kent County? If so I would be careful about writing off rabies vaccines for good. Rabies does exist in Kent County and if there are *ever* any incidents with your dog (even an accidental bite, like he bites you in play or you’re breaking up a fight) and he doesn’t have a valid rabies certificate you will be SOL. I would not mess with that unless I had a very good reason to suspect the rabies vaccine was life threatening. I’m just saying this as someone who in the past has been lax about vaccinating and keeping my dog licenses up to date thinking nothing would ever happen to me but when something *did* boy was I glad that was the year everyone was licensed otherwise I’d be deep in fines and having a dog removed over something that happened to me in my own home. If you’re not in Kent County check your county’s rules. Rabies does exist in Michigan. Kent county doesn’t require annual vaccination; I do rabies every three years (the vaccine is basically the same but the certificate from the vet has a three year expiration date on it instead of one).
When you eliminate foods, you generally only feed 1 protein source at a time-maybe the issue is all poultry and you eliminated chicken, but were still feeding turkey. Why does the vet suspect food rather than environmental allergies? Did he try him on any antihistamines to see if they helped?
Another great pointer. I will eliminate poultry but I’m afraid I may have to go to a processed (high quality) food because I don’t have access to a reliable source of meat (without paying an arm and a leg) and Xavi will not eat Honest Kitchen.
I agree with Lisa’s comments, particularly in the issue of environmental allergies. If I see ear issues, or chewing on feet I’m looking immediately at food issues, but general itching makes me think seasonal allergies first.
Is there a vet in your area who works on allergy issues? We have one in Michigan; he’s a three hour drive, but worth it, as I could find out in one appointment what my dogs are allergic to and take immediate steps to eliminate the issues. The screening approach is a bit odd – Nutrition Response Testing, but I believe it does work. With my wire podengo Tank I tried cutting out the foods I thought were his problem, and did see immediate improvement with chicken removal, but he still had some issues. I took him to this vet and was told that he was sensitive to chicken (and all poultry) and beef (the staple of his diet at that time). He’s on all fish now. fortunately he’s only 11 lbs so can’t eat enough to break me. 🙂 The same vet also designs a supplement program for each dog to boost the immune system and repair damaged organs.
Good luck!
I guess in an effort to be brief I neglected to add that there’s plenty of feet chewing and biting anywhere on his body where he can reach, which, according to what I’m reading, would point to food allergies. Would you mind sharing the info on the vet that tests for allergies? I’m in touch with our Holistic vet but having additional resources never hurts. Thank you.
Sounds like he’s on raw now? Are you open to anything else? Coke gets the itchies but he does REALLY well on California Natural Lamb and Rice kibble. It’s an “LID” – Limited Ingredient Diet, designed for allergy dogs. All it has is one protein (lamb, rare for dog to be allergic to this, much more common to be allergic to poultry) and one carb (rice) and that’s it. In fact all my dogs have always done well on this but for Coke in particular it seems to keep the itchies away. I switched to Fromm Gold a while back because it’s cheaper and still made in the USA, semi-local to me (Wisconsin) but Coke got terrible itches, he was literally pulling his fur out in clumps and his skin was peeling off all over. Fromm is a good kibble and made in the USA but has a lot of ingredients. I didn’t have the patience to narrow them down one by one so I went back to California Natural Lamb and Rice….no major itchies since.
When I feed raw meat it’s venison and Coke hasn’t had a problem with that but I think usually the more common a protein or carb is, the more likely it is that dogs are allergic. However I had a few people tell me it could also be the flaxseed oil in Fromm so I’m avoiding that. I’ve used fish oil and salmon oil in the past and he doesn’t seem to have a problem with those. My neighborhood just placed an order from an organic food supplier so I’m waiting on coconut oil and will try that (just looking for a cheaper alternative to fish oil).
Last week this guy I work with came up to me and said his dogs have had itchies for years and they’ve tried all sorts of foods and supplements. Someone recently recommended apple cider vinegar and he insisted that the dogs are cured of itchies. Since this is super cheap I’ve started to add about a teaspoon to the dogs’ bowls once a day and it gets diluted since I also always float their food. The benefits are debatable (some web sites claim it cures pretty much anything) but in such a small, diluted quantity it can’t hurt to try.
In general I would try to feed a single protein and single carb source without adding supplements, to clean out the dog’s system. It’s not a completely balanced diet but a dog can live a LONG time on the bland elimination diet (talking years), so he could at least get some relief and reboot his system before adding things in one by one.
Lies,
I’m open to try anything suggested by a reputable source.I did mention earlier that I was considering going to a dry food so I will certainly be looking at California Natural Lamb and Rice kibble. I’m not a hunter and really have no access to venison since the local processors claim there’s a law that keeps them from selling it. There is one that will do it but he wants $4.50 per lb. Once my arm recovers from my surgery I will look into becoming a hunter I guess. All for the love of children!
Yeah I much prefer a raw diet but can’t because of how often I travel with dogs (and how many we carpool with – there is not room for a huge cooler of raw food) and I don’t have a chest freezer at home yet so I can’t buy in bulk and take advantage of savings. Luckily I have several hunters in the family and get their excess venison, or venison that is 2-3 years old when they want to make room for fresh stuff (as long as it has always been frozen it is OK many years old).
The Cal Nat has worked really well for us, each dog I’ve had, even my temporary live-ins and fosters. Other than the dogs being healthy and no itchies, I also like that on this food their poop is nicely formed and doesn’t smell too bad. It’s more like how they poop when eating raw or bland diets than their poop on other kibbles I’ve tried. I know that’s kind of a weird “pro” but when I tried Fromm I couldn’t believe how smelly the poop was and when you have 2-4 dogs at a time and a yard barely big enough to do a cartwheel sticky, smelly poop is no fun! Also when you buy 12 bags you get the 13th free. 30lbs of dog kibble for free is like Christmas!
Lies,
FYI, I just called Chow Hound in Holland. The 30 lb bag is $48.99 and you only have to buy 10 bags to get the 11th one for free.
That’s where I get it, I love Chow Hound, they are really awesome. They know all my dogs, what they eat, and give us extra deals (they give me discount when I’m buying for foster dogs, basically let me name my price on clearance items….it’s not a bad idea to become a frequent customer!).
“The proof is in the poop.” Didn’t you say that once, Lies? 🙂 Words to live by!
Hey if I didn’t say it I’m sure I’ve thought it many times! 🙂
It could also be an environmental sensitivity, for example cedar (bedding), nylon (carpets). Have you noticed if it is seasonal or not? I ask because his sister, Ava shows no itchiness at all. Nor sensitivity to any food. I also do not have rugs or carpets in my house. Do you use many pesticides, fertilizers, etc., around your home?
Julie,
Out of those “triggers” the only one Xavi is exposed to is carpet. He sleeps in one of those nice crate pads that they sell at dog shows and I’m very careful about exposure to chemicals. Thanks to you and Karen Xavi has always been on organic, essential oil-based recipes for bathing and fleas. I will certainly look to move away from carpet when the time comes to replace our flooring.
Hi Rod,
I don’t know if those are triggers or not just trying to get you to think of other things besides food.
j
Hi Rod, Batman has been plagued with allergic symptoms for the last 4 months — I could write a book on it. We still have not got down to the bottom of it. The most effective treatment so far has been exercise and lots of it. Batman runs and plays fetch with me for at least an hour, usually twice a day. When he comes home, he is too tired to scratch. Since you have a young pup, you have to be more careful with physical exercise, but I’m sure Julie and others can provide helpful guidelines.
When we get to CA (we are on the road right now, in the middle of a move), I plan to get him allergy tested using Jean Dodd’s kit (Karen recommended): http://nutriscan.org/
It seems that Batty has developed another ear yeast infection on the road, and is itchier than ever. I brought witch hazel, coconut oil, apple cider vinegar and Mercola probiotics with me — these are staples, along with Vetricyn. I wipe the inside of his ear canal with witch hazel on a cotton ball (do not use Q-tips) until all the gunk is out. I feed coconut oil, and rub a bit on irritated skin. Coconut oil is a natural anti-fungal and anti-bacterial. I also feel 1 Tbs of ACV daily, and probiotics with each meal. He has not gotten his usual dose of krill oil and hemp oil (omega3s) on the road, which I think is why he is so itchy right now.
Another good thing to have on hand is Colloidal Silver, a natural antibiotic. You can apply this topically on hotspots or wounds to disinfect, and also feed. Batman loves getting a dropperful of CS in his mouth.
I will write more when I have more time, but one quick rec is to keep a calendar documenting symptoms and diet. Include every little detail — food, fish oils, supplements fed, topicals applied, homeopathic interventions administered, etc. Then include an update on his condition — are stools ok (soft, mucous-y, etc), how itchy is he from 1-10, any new hotspots formed, etc.
I’ve found this to be very helpful to track which interventions may be effective, and what happens when things change. For Batman, I noticed a pattern where he almost stopped itching entirely after 2 weeks on Answers Raw Pork complete diet. Unfortunately, this is a PA-based company, and impossible to provide on the road. Right now, he is on Primal Raw Venison, and is not doing too well on it.
Finally, I recommend getting a soft cone (Comfy Cone is the one we have) to keep him from aggravating any ear or skin wounds. I have been surprised at how quickly a mild hotspot or ear issue can become severe due to Batman’s self-scratching or chewing.
Finally the Christmas squeeze has left and having just 1 party to go I found time today to catch up on your helpful input. Xavi had a few hot spots once in the summer and we tried athlete’s foot spray, when that didn’t work we tried colloidal silver (which I didn’t know was edible!) and then we tried Vetericyn. When those 3 didn’t work we ended up having to go to the vet for antibiotics which did take care of the problem. Thankfully Xavi has had no issues with hotspots since. At this point we have switched to feeding only California Natural Lamb and Rice and the itching has gone down to about 50%. He is also getting about 1 hr worth’s of walks thru the day and mostly tricks training. Having use of only one arm hinders efective obedience training but his “Bang, you are dead!” is coming along nicely. We are also ordering a kit from http://nutriscan.org/. Once we ID what the culprit is we will be able to tailor Xavi’s diet. Last thing we are looking to do is detox him.
This brings up an important issue. Scratching, licking and itching can start out with a cause (it is very hard even for us to not scratch an itch) and can become a habit by the time you resolve the root cause of the problem.
It is reallyimportant to tackle a problem like this from many fronts. For example, the chain can start with a reaction to a food or an environmental issue but by the time you remove the trigger, the dog can have a baterial infection on the skin from the scratching. We can give advise but the best thing is to find a skilled vet who is willing to be a partner with you and include you in making the decisions on how to tackle the problem. There is not one size fits all solution. You need a vet willing to work out a program specific for your dog and this may take some trial and error. Make sure your vet is willing to explain why he thinks something will help or not help. Use those you know who have been through it as a resource but be careful not to try everything. Doing too much can be as bad as not doing enough.
As far as vaccines (including rabies). Whether you believe in vaccinating or not, you should only vaccinate healthy animals. Vaccinating a dog who is dealing with any health issue increasing the danger of a reaction.
Irene,
We are lucky enough to be working with a holistic vet that actually trained under Dr Moz. She is actively working with us but being that I feel its beneficial to reach out to people that have a lot of experience with our beloved AT pups. We have also decided that at this point we will forgo any type of vaccine since our priority is to get Xavi 100% healthy.