Today, Batty and I walked to Georgetown to go to the Dog Shop. Which was closed. So we went to Unleashed by Petco instead. Once there, we ran into another male GSD, who snapped at Batman. Batman, confused that any carbon-based life form could be unfriendly to him, backed away, and the two of us proceeded with our shopping. No big deal.
On the way home, we were stopped by an admirer, who chased us down from across the street and asked where Batman came from. Tempted to say “Gotham City,” I told him he came from Alta-Tollhaus, and we had a friendly discussion about German line GSDs (he has two). The man had seen us walking, and could tell Batman was a German GSD by his structure and gait. So this was all very pleasant, and Batty was very good (we had walked for over 3 miles by this point, so he was nice and tired).
Then, the man told me that his intact male GSD had a personality change after he turned 1. He all of a sudden became aggressive towards other male dogs. He said this was not unusual. I thought of Lynda’s Ivan and Dylan, proof positive that two intact males can live in peace, but didn’t argue with the man because he seemed genuine enough, and it wasn’t really worth it to me to debate him.
Have any of you heard of such a thing, or seen a personality change in your intact male dogs after they turn 1? I know they turn into buttheads around that age (temporarily, anyway), but I didn’t think they became more confrontational or aggressive towards other male dogs. I hate to use the word “aggressive” because it’s so often misapplied to dogs that are actually fearful or insecure, but that’s what this man said happened to his male GSD, so I’ll just take his word for it.
Between that conversation and the interaction with the snappish GSD at Unleashed, it just got me thinking about how I can expect Batman to interact with male dogs as he gets older. Any advice? Any experiences to share? Help a sister out!
Finally, this is my favorite picture from this weekend. Batman, heeling for his yellow ball, before he punctured and partly crushed it with his bat fangs.
Roman will be 3 this March and he really doesn’t have issues with other dogs. He’s intact and plays with most dogs at the dog park. He’s also fine with dogs at herding clinics we attend. On a few occaisons I’ve caught him giving a low growl towards another dog and I’ll give him a quick pop with the collar and a harsh “phooey” or “get out” (herding command) and all is fine. We have 2 other dogs at home and made it a point to socailize him from an early age. If other dogs bark at him, I think it’s just because they’re jealous 🙂
By the way, one of our other dogs is a 13 yr old 17lb female Shiba Inu with a few missing teeth. She’s the queen of the house and puts Roman in his place when he needs it.
Oh, I know it is because they are jealous!
LOL. This is not a short answer. It is part training and part genetics and a lot of hormones. Usually training makes a huge difference. Keep up the socialization. They do a lot of macho posturing while growning up. Your job is to guide them and let them know what is acceptable and what isn’t. Be cautious with his playmates. The fastest way for dogs to become dog aggrssive is through negative experiences. Make clear to him he is not allowed to be reactive but also make clear to him that you will keep him safe and protect him. Keep training, Batman has good genetics, he will be fine.
well said Irene.
You should have told him Gotham City LOLOLOL Yes males can be that way but they also can learn to live together in harmony. It does help that you bring in a pup to introduce to an adult. It also matters that such with Dylan and Ivan hey live together so they have their pecking order established.
There is a lady who has I believe 5 intact GSD’s all living in the same house, and it works for them. Sabree was that way with other dogs but not with her house mates. We had to correct that behavior, and occasionally we still test it.
Like Ivan & Dylan, I have an older intact male Lab who, so far, has been wonderful about sharing everything he owns with this imposter, who spends his time trying to provoke the old man. My old Lab has always been confident and non-confrontational. We’ve been working with him 24-7 throughout his life, as we will with Dutch. I totally agree with Irene. We need to let them know that they are part of our pack, although not the pack leader, and together we can take deal with whatever comes our way.
Gavin lived with another intact German Shepherd male that was 3 years older than him and they got along fine, I also have neutered small dogs, a JRT a Cairn Terrier and a Chihuahua, believe it or not the ALPHA is the Chihuahua, being the oldest he takes no crap from the younguns!!
I have three male dogs in my house, two are GSDs and both are intact. Coke is a large mutt (bigger than the GSDs) and is neutered (I don’t like to say “fixed” b/c that implies that intact dogs are “broken”!). My GSDs also “know” three other intact male GSDs and are around these dogs enough where they are tolerated and accepted even though they aren’t part of the immediate pack. I firmly believe that intact animals can live harmoniously within the same pack. However I absolutely do not expect my GSDs – male or female, intact or altered – to get along with just any other dog that crosses our path. I expect my dogs to be neutral to other dogs and people and always mind me in public. I would not expect adult male GSDs to be very outgoing with other intact male dogs that are not part of their own pack, I don’t think that’s very GSD-ish behavior. However that doesn’t mean intact males get a pass at going around trying to pick fights or snap at other dogs that come by. Nikon is extremely aloof with other dogs (and people), he just plain ignores them unless it’s a person or dog he truly cares about, or the person or dog starts to get in his space (like a strange dog charging over and jumping on him, not OK!). He has no problems heeling nicely in public and passing other dogs in close quarters. I use him as the “neutral dog” for CGC practices and I used to show him so he’s quite OK being butt-to-nose or face-to-face with other dogs and having no reaction whatsoever, but I’d never bring him to a dog park and expect him to instantly make friends with strange dogs. At home he is very much a part of a “pack”. My dogs pretty much have free reign together when I’m home and they play, wrestle, sleep side by side, lick off each others’ faces. They know each others’ barks and all the other dogs instantly take notice if one acts wary or gives a warning bark.
“I don’t like to say “fixed” b/c that implies that intact dogs are “broken”!” I like it Lies
Thanks, everyone for being so helpful, as always.
Batman doesn’t have many playmates because I don’t trust many dogs around here. He has three friends: a terrier mix, a Bernese, and a GSD (not the one that snapped at him). I hope his first puppy class on Tuesday will be a good socialization opportunity — there are 2 instructors for a class of 6 older puppies, so their interactions will be monitored.
Batman has had 4 dogs snap at him so far: the GSD today, a female poodle mix, a boxer, and a really obnoxious beagle mix. The boxer and beagle mix were both several feet away (no physical contact), and lunged at him while on lead. Batman and I just walked past quickly, with him looking back at them, like, “Sheesh! What’s YOUR problem?” The beagle mix lives in my building, and lunges every time he sees Batty or any other dog. It is very unpleasant. I would be ready to kick him away if he ever gets off lead.
The female poodle mix doesn’t like puppies, yet her owner insists on trying to get her to play with Batman. Whenever I see her, I walk the other way. I hope she takes the hint.
Dog people are a mixed bag. Some of them are the most wonderful people you will ever meet. And some of them are totally clueless and annoying. I try to be polite, but really, I’m not out there to make friends.
“Dog people are a mixed bag. Some of them are the most wonderful people you will ever meet. And some of them are totally clueless and annoying. ” THIS CAN BE THE QUOTE OF THE MONTH!
What a great thread! I’ve learned so much from you all, and will think about those pearls of wisdom as we venture out with Dutch in public. It’s so interesting to read about how the packs have evolved in your various households, especially the ALPHA Chihuahua! Strangers and their dogs are never predictable, so we have to be prepared to protect our loved ones from human stupidity and their often ill-mannered dogs.
Batty sounds super well socialized, and thus far has handled those encounters extremely well. We have taken Dutch downtown a couple of times, and to Petco once. Do you have any suggestions for additional socialization opportunities? We’ve read that there is a golden window of opportunity to socialize a GSD pup that starts to close at 12 weeks, so we have 3 more weeks that are extremely important. It’s usually very cold and snowy here, so there aren’t many people outside unless there’s a break in the weather. Our mall doesn’t allow pets. I was thinking about taking him to the school yard at the time the kids get out.
All very good advice. Although Singer is the only male in our house at this time. Singer runs around with other intact males at the ranch. They all run out in the field chasing balls, rabbits, lizards and each other. If ever ther is a problem we are quick to check it up and they go right back to playing with no trouble. In our obedience class we often put males together side by side or even facing each other for long sits and downs. Yesterday Singer was in a long down next to an intact male Rottie butt to butt and no problems. The important thing is socialization and consistancy in your training. Help them learn and understand the rules and never put your dog in a bad situation.
Bravo, Rich!
Jennie, I think Irene summed this up in a nutshell. Socialization, training, genetics, hormones.
As you have found out, not every one you meet will have a friendly or well-trained dog. You selectively choosing Batman’s friends is the way to go.
You’ll even find at training class that not all puppies will be friendly. It will depend on the socialization they’ve had. I am not a big proponent of my dog must make friends with every strange dog it meets – however, it should remain neutral. Batman knows to do that. Trust your instincts and keep away from the snippy poodle.
Yes Jennie, they do change, within a month – Koda turned into a jack a$$.
As soon as Koda turned 10 months old, something changed. He started barking at anything that moves in the backyard.
He learned this behavior from our neighbor’s dog. They bark as if saying “we’re here bark bark”- Koda trying to be polite says “Hi neighbor, bark bark”
Now, he is a barking machine. He thinks his barking is oh so macho of him.
Shock collar is coming in today.
I have started to use the term “Wireless Leash”.
The following is information I got at an Ian Dunbar seminar, it is based on actual studies done on a colony of Beagles. I believe that GSD and Beagles mature at different rates so the actual ages may not correspond exactly.
Paraphrasing…..”Starting at 4 – 5 months the testosterone in your in-tact male dog rapidly increases to the age of 10 months at which time it peaks. After this very rapid increase, the testosterone slowly decreases to a low, constant level.”
My very UN-scientific observation is, for GSD the peak occurs more around 1 year or so. The decrease to the low constant level takes much longer, I think it decreases even more slowly maybe reaching its stabilization at 3 years. Again this is only my guess.
Anyway, during the months of the testosterone surge, your male dog can go into a testosterone fog making it hard to train …it is frustrating for you and as well as it is for them, they don’t know what is going on and cannot think straight. Early training is very important as you and your dog will have this to fall back on. Survive the testosterone surge and you will have a wonderful dog in the end. The intact females go through major hormone swings every 6 months or so. When talking about hormones and in-tact dogs, over the long-run, a male dog is easier then a female.
The terms socialization and socializing your dog are a bit deceiving. Most people read/hear these words and think this means going to lunch for tea and crumpets with other dogs. OK maybe not exactly the picture you get, but it is not about play dates with other dogs per se.
Socializing your dog is about teaching your dog to handle various situations and to behave in the presence of other dogs, animals, and all types of people.
Koda DID have crumpets yestersday- so there you go, he socialized. 😀
unless he also had tea it wasn’t civilized…just ask Andrea.
Touche!
This is a very good distinction. Thanks, Julie.
Koda seems like he would enjoy a nice tea party, don’t you think?
When I went to Germany and bred Maika to Macho (Digger vom Elzmündungsraum). When I was inside the home of the Dieterich family all four of their in-tact stud dogs were in the house together. Yes all four of them were active stud dogs. Here are the four males who all happily lived together at that time:
https://24kgsd.com/blog/2010/03/12/zamp-family-pictures/
Zamp has since passed but replaced Quattro, seen in this post.
https://24kgsd.com/blog/2010/10/27/joy-and-sorrow/
When I went back with Maika for a second time to breed to Zamp. I was waiting for Reinhard in their front yard while Maika was running around loose, all four of these boys were hanging over the gate drooling over Maika. Not one of them ever showed any sign of aggression toward the other with a female in-heat under their noses.
Just recently, when I bred Allie to Franco, when Ottmar did his kennel chores he would turn all of his dogs out loose together, including 3 in-tact males. All behaved perfectly. I asked him if he ever had any fights. “Nooooo. I am the boss. So no reason to fight.”
Also Karl Fueller at Kirschental would have 5 – 7 of his female loose in the courtyard as he flung fresh meat from the tip of his knife at the group of girls. The meat would be hanging from the sheep hooks he would slice off a piece and fling it.
Your dog needs to be confident that you are the leader, if they are not then they feel they have to take the initiative and act.
Oh my gosh. These dogs are amazing. They make me believe that anything is possible!
I will work on my leadership skills.
At home, when Ivan first came to us, we had Dylan and a dominant 11 year old spayed female GSD, named Kelsey, who was quick to teach Ivan the rules of the house. Dylan has never been dominant in any way. When Dylan and Ivan play they take turns submitting.
From the first day that Ivan came home we took him out to meet people. We enrolled him in “Puppy Kindergarten” as soon as we could and have had him in training ever since. Ivan has gone to all of Dylan’s agility trials long before he was even training for agility.
As with any dog Ivan has had his moments when he was far less than perfect and we were quick to show him the error of his ways. Between 4 to 8 months of age Ivan went through stages where he appeared to be “very aggressive” towards other dogs. He would bark and lunge at them when he was on leash. (As with a lot of dogs, he was fine off leash). He also went through some fear stages and was “barky” at people. We kept working him through these issues and he is much better now.
We take the dogs everywhere. We have gone to ball games, to music strolls and to parks where dogs run loose. Ivan is not aggressive with any dogs so far, males or females. Luckily he has never been in a situation where he has had to defend himself and we will continue to try to make sure that never happens as we do not want Ivan to learn to “fight”. We keep a close eye on both of the dogs and try not to let them get into situations where they will make the wrong decision. All of the above is our normal lifestyle and also to make sure that Ivan was exposed to as much stimuli as possible.
Since both Jack and I have Humane Society/Law Enforcement backgrounds all our dogs have been spayed or neutered. Dylan was the first un-neutered dog we have owned. We decided to not neuter him until he was mature or if and when he became dominant or aggressive. Dylan does not have an aggressive bone in his body and therefore we never had him neutered. However, Dylan was neutered in July 2011. We decided to have him neutered for a couple of reasons. One was his age (6.5 years old at the time) as we did not want to risk him getting testicular cancer and having to put him through the neutering surgery when he is older. We also did not want Dylan and Ivan to have any issues down the road as Ivan matures. They are good buddies and we want to keep it that way.
Thank you, Lynda. This is very helpful.
I’m sure we all agree, whatever you’re doing with Ivan and Dylan, keep doing it!
@Julie
Julie- I love your definition of socialization of dogs! There is a lady (perhaps) that works at my vet’s office that thinks Gryph should love to see cats, dogs, rabbits etc., I am sure you get the picture, but when he seems happy to see her she doesn’t like it (go figure). As she has said GSD are not her favorite dogs. Luckily the vet and the rest of the staff think he is quite charming.
How can you work at a vet and be like that. I would be thankful the dog was happy to see me and not trying to eat me. LOL
I”ve been wondering how you guys have been, it’s great to see you posting.
Well isn’t that a bit paradoxical. Good to hear from Jean!